What does win-win sound like anyway?

 Interested in what a business/personal relationship with a real future sounds like? Interested in what win-lose, lose-win, and lose-lose are really hiding behind all that pain? Interested in discovering how hardcore guys are actually knee deep in learned helplessness, core shame, and grief despite all the airs? Need help navigating and identifying all these cases for your future, business, project and program? Read more here.

How to Tell the Difference Between Synergy (Win-Win), Narcissism (Win-Lose), Martyrdom (Lose-Win) and Mutual Assured Destruction (Lose-Lose)

We often spend a lot of time talking about the principles of win-win, but we are hardly ever given the tools to correctly identify which one we are talking about. Below is an exhaustive list to help you identify what you’re dealing with and some suggestions on what to do when you find yourself in their respective presences.

Win-win is the ideal state where lasting happiness exists.

Win-win is the synergetic position that both intends and successfully actualizes (not just intends and fails) to deliver what would be considered a win for both parties.

What we fail to recognize is that such a position is impossible if the other party has decided they want you to lose. They will not be honest about what would be required to give themselves a win, and will quickly reframe anything you do for them as a lose.

In such a case, should you determine that you are dealing with this person, be aware win-win is not possible. As I always suggest seeking out only win-win opportunities, your best bet would be to entirely leave this situation until they are ready to tell you what a true and doable win for both of you would be.

What win-win sounds like, the developed adult interaction where meaningful return is possible and deliverable for both parties, hostility is known to drive value down and cooperation is tenacious, consistent and long-term

“You are so impressive! I want to work with you. What are you looking for right now? Here’s what I’m looking for. Does any of that sound appealing? How can we merge these interests?”

“I really think you can do this. I’ve been doing something similar. Would you like to see what worked for me?”

“Can I feature what I did for you in my business? I would love to put a link to your work!”

“Hey, I have ______ skill. I really love what you do. Can I contribute to this in exchange for you directing some of your traffic my way?”

“Thank you for being on my team! Here’s a paid vacation for all your hard work.”

“Every since our wages have gone up, I’ve noticed you’ve all been way happier and more productive. Your content reflects your positivity and we’ve had our best quarter yet. I’m so happy this is working out.”

“I think we can succeed at this project if we split the labor and focus on our specialties. Want to split the credit/value 50–50 when it succeeds?”

“I love what you do and want to reflect that by compensating you correctly.”

“I love what you do and want to reflect that by improving your world. How can I do that? A win for someone who contributes this much to my life is a win for me.”

“You are doing enough and deserve recognition. How can I help you get out of the situation where you are being driven into the ground and experiencing burnout? How can I improve your life? Seeing you suffer is costing me emotionally. I need to get you out of there for my own sanity.”

What win-lose (narcissism) looks like, the pathological extension of the infant phase into adulthood where the agent can literally not provide a return meaningfully and without outside help may drive the source into deficit

“I recognize your talent, but I think I deserve its products more, even if I have no reason to say or think that. I’m just going to take them even if that means you stop creating and become depressed. Who cares! I win! I deserve to win!”

“____ has everything wrong with him. I have the same exact qualities, but there is nothing wrong with me. And don’t make me self-reflect on that. I’m a winner, he isn’t.”

“Yeah? You want to stand up to me like that? Look at all your failures _____, _____, and _______. Now compensate me for these failures, even though all I did was point them out and not even look into them.”

“I don’t like when you win. I’m not going to let you. Instead, every time you lose, I will twist it into my win. My winning is dependent on your failing. I need you to an extreme degree, but I am enraged by that fact. It makes me feel like a loser. So I need to see you lose because that’s the only way I believe I can win compared to you.”

“Bless your heart. You’re so kind. It’s amazing how you give and give and give without getting anything back. And I’m also going to attack you if you try to change this self-destructive behavior, because I actually think you deserve to suffer and I deserve what you do for free. I really like the freebie you give, and don’t care if it kills you. I honestly think you should die for me, no matter how absurd this proposition is in reality.”

“I’m going to take this work of yours without citation and pretend like I came up with it. I don’t care if that ruins you reputationally or financially. I can’t foresee how this will impact societal trust and my culture’s willingness/ability to be creative and generative. I deserve this. Treat yourself.”

“People that give at their own expense are beautiful. When you don’t do this you are ugly and I’m going to attack you. I deserve you to ruin your life for me, even if you don’t even like me or want anything to do with me! Obviously you are just wrong or lying. How could you not want to give me everything? But don’t expect me to lift a finger for you.”

“You’re not real.” (the individual uses this understanding to justify their exploitation).

“It’s all going to your enemy. Seeing you suffer and jealous brings me great pleasure, because then I am in front of the feelings of inferiority that I need to take responsibility for instead of making you pay for them. I am actually still very immature, despite any professional airs I put on.”

“Not yet.” (endless deferral)

What martyrdom (lose-win) looks like, when an individual is deep within learned helplessness and seeks to control what they know to be an inevitable deficit by purposefully losing. Ironically this creates more win-lose people, not less, since there is someone actually fulfilling their pathological demands.

“Here. Take everything. I don’t need it.” (Expects the person will take it anyway.)

“Love is boundarylessness.” (It’s not, but the person believes their boundaries won’t be respected anyway so glamorizes the situation.)

“Anger is an ugly emotion.” (the person is afraid of the anger they would feel if they got real about what happened to them and can’t afford to validate it.)

“Beauty is when you would die for anyone and anything.” (actually extremely unhealthy and minimizes the possible contribution we could give this world)

“I love being so busy and needed. Burnout is the sign of value.” (person is trying to have a positive attitude in the face of learned helplessness due to slavish workloads)

“Having everything taken from me means I am hot and in high demand.” (person equates desiredness with exploitedness to avoid seeing how it actually just means they are deeply disrespected and are responsible for seeking better company)

“Take anything you need. We have infinite amounts.” (person realizes their main staying power is the fact they give endlessly, so they try to upsell this position even if it’s not backable in a material sense.)

“That’s so selfish of her. She should give more. And more and more!” (feels out of control of victimization and tries to pass it onto others so at least they’re not alone)

“I know you won’t give anything back and will drive me further into deficit if I ask for an actual return. So here. Have extra! Hopefully that will get you to leave me alone for awhile.” (It won’t. It will just encourage them.)

“I feel so beautiful when you take from me for needless things and waste it.” (trying to feel in control of victimization, equating exploitation with being attractive instead of being self-hating)

“Our team should lose. They’re so behind. They obviously can’t do it. I’m going to make us all lose so that they can feel like winners.” (the child or adult in such a case actually thinks they did something right, and doesn’t know they were just permitted to win. When they find out, they may become extremely enraged. The child or adult needs to be taught. This is actually a very condescending position, often used to cloak that the company does not want to teach the other person the tools of their trade, and actually is a covert win-lose)

What mutual assured destruction (lose-lose) looks like. The individual is hopeless and genuinely believes there is no way out of their deficit, and seeing people win only adds to the deficit. So they drag others down just to feel less out of control.

“Hey, I have a tip for you!” (advice that made their company/project fail in the past)

Gives any sort of inaccurate feedback to create an evaluation function that will collapse when brought before healthy people with accurate evaluation functions.

Avoids compensating correctly at the fear it will put them out of business. This is actually what puts them out of business.

Avoids doing maintenance or celebrating talent at the fear they will leave the company. This is what causes them to leave the company.

Finds ways to spring the satisfaction experience without actually providing an material sustenance, aka gaslighting in the form of false positivity or demanding that the individuals stay positive about their leader even as the leader crashes the company into the ground.

“I don’t want you to have any self-worth since I don’t have any. I think I deserve it more but I don’t know how to do it so you certainly won’t then as well.”

“I don’t want you to have any happiness because I don’t have any. I think I deserve it more but I don’t know how to do it so you certainly won’t then as well.”

“I don’t think you deserve that because I deserve that more, but I don’t want it because you had it.”

“I hate you and I will stop at nothing to destroy you because you make me feel bad when you are just yourself. I deserve everything you have, even if I don’t.”

Gaslights employees and contributors about future possibilities and compensation. “Everyone does better after working here.” (most people do worse)

“If I’m going down then I’m taking you all with me. I don’t believe anyone could possibly be more valuable than I am or genuinely bring more value than I do and I can’t take facing that may be the case.”

“I can’t stand you but that makes me feel like I’m ugly so I’m just going to take us both out.”

“I can’t stand you but others can’t stand that I can’t stand you so I’m going to take the whole group out.”

“I can’t stand that you won’t do what I want so instead of moving onto somewhere where I have more effect, I need to feel in control by taking the whole thing out.”

“I don’t owe you anything even if I do. I can’t stand acknowledging you provided real value to me that didn’t come from myself or someone sufficiently like me instead of someone like you.”

“You owe me and you’re going to owe me forever and I will never be satisfied. In fact, everytime you try to pay me back I will just hike up your debt even more because deep down I am scared I will never be able to compare to you and I never want you to catch wind of that fact.”

“You provide a return but I’m not going to tell you because I don’t and I believe by not acknowledging you, you will be distracted from that fact.”

Suggestions on how to deal with win-win people;

• Consider if what they think is a win for you is actually a win. If it’s not, provide feedback. Truly win-win people are willing to work with you. As part of your being win-win, you are also willing to work with them. Nobody is trying to drag the other person to another position. Excellence of feedback adaption is inherent in being win-win.
• Tell them if you don’t have the energy to deliver your side at this time and ask for a win-win deferral plan.
• Ask them for a donation and allow them to be creative on how they can use that to continue to support themselves.
• Do not exploit them; win-win individuals are relatively rare and the more limited this type of person becomes the more our society will lose.
• Just because someone says they are win-win doesn’t mean they are. Things to ask. 1) Are they interested in what is actually a win for you? 2) Do they deliver this? 3) Are you interested in what is actually a win for them? 4) Do you deliver this? 5) How well/poorly do you two negotiate different processing/creation rates/styles?
• Win-win people are vehemently against exploitation. If they have a high tolerance for exploitation or dehumanization in other spheres, walk away.
• They are mainly focused on the constructive, not critical, directions. They mainly focus on this even if it is hard and even if there are a lot of excuses not to be this way available. They know how to be the driving force of uplifting energy.

Suggestions on how to deal with a win-lose person

• Understand this person is in an extended infancy and know that they are experiencing core shame because of that. Know anything acerbic, maladaptive or cruel comes from this core shame.
• Set boundaries.
• Provide win-win role models/examples that remind them of themselves.
• Reject transference. AKA, do not accept when they try to offload their faults onto you — but be careful to make sure it’s not a win-win person trying to help you become self-aware. Take some time if you think they are thoughtful. “Does this have some truth to it?” It may be someone trying to help you level up. So be careful. If not, and it seems excessively infant-like, practice “return to sender” and “walk away”.
• Educate them as well as you can on win-win processes and then move onto someone who can actually deliver win-win.
• Grieve how bizarre and uncomfortable this behavior really is. Be aware deep down they feel the same way.
• Do not expect them to have someone hiding in there that is actually who you wish they were. This is genuinely where they are in development. Overtime they may be change, but that is because they were grown into it not discovered/uncovered.
• Look where the focus is. If it’s usually in “you” and not on self-reflecting, they are likely in an extended infant phase where the infant must focus on the source to survive. Again, be sensitive, this person is dealing with core shame regarding this fact. We have to admit it must be embarrassing!

Suggestions on how to do deal with a lose-win person

• Tell them the impact of enabling returnless investment on your life and future — aka, going broke and feeling like that’s a good thing. It’s actually really self-hating to do that.
• Tell them that no matter how much they pressure you into sharing this position you will refuse. Do not accept violence or cruelty to get you to join them in their victimization. Show them there’s a way out if boundaries are stuck to and cruelty is rejected.
• Tell them how this creates more win-lose types, not less by fulfilling their demands.
• Show them how to set strong boundaries and stick to them even when it gets really, really intense.
• Give them energy, they probably have had tons taken away from them.
• Allow them to be enraged. Like any victim where everything was taken, this sort of atrocity is horrific and creates a sense of rage.
• Have compassion; realizing you were exploited by someone you hate, dislike, or don’t respect can make an individual feel stupid, ugly, and evil when they stop allowing it. It can also make them feel really scared that the person they thought loved them was actually feeding off of them without a care in the world for years if not decades. This is actually really frightening when truly admitted.
• Give them time to grieve.
• Set boundaries against inconsistent justice where people attack victims to feel less victimized. Help them identify perpetrators and provide logical and emotional support so they are strong enough to identify and eventually pursue the correct form of justice (aka attacking your coworker instead of the boss you know is responsible for triangulating the two of you).
• Help them understand how their trauma informs their beliefs.
• Educate them on financial, structural, belief-based, emotional and logical self-sabotage.
• Provide them with trauma-informed, grief-informed therapy.

Suggestions on how to deal with a lose-lose person

• Understand the person is essentially suicidal
• Understand the person has met a scenario that makes them feel hopeless, that there is no way out. If you have energy, help them come up with ways to get out. This is a horrific position for anyone to be in.
• Do not enable homicide, suicide, or permanently decisive torture/aggression. Bring all of these to compassionate justice.
• Give backable hope, not meaningless hope. Make sure your hope has materialist backing behind it, like money or items if you want to help. You do not have to.
• Do not be made to help if the person is actively homicidal towards you.
• Be aware someone deep in dissociated rage will project their homicidal/suicidal tendencies on you. Refuse to accept these projections as they may say “I know you meant that” or “I know you unconsciously meant that”. They are mind-reading from a position of extreme depressive dysphoria. Be compassionate while still saying no.
• Try to be as compassionate, intelligent, patient, effective and other-focused as possible if you are really interested in helping people get out of this black hole of despair. If you find that you are constantly bringing the attention back to yourself you do not have enough to help this person at this time. Come back later if you wish with better mastery and the ability and will to actually deliver all the way.
• Give what you can. Do what you can. But don’t promise everything if you have no plan and no backing.
• Don’t accept punishment for trying, but do become better instead of remaining at the same level and harassing someone in dire need with incompetent but good intentions.
• Keep clear that this is a function of hopelessness. Try to remain in contact with win-win people and keep a very clear head about what is and isn’t a healthy belief during this time.
• Remember, anyone can be lose-lose, including well-dressed, rich, happy-seeming, previously win-win people. All it takes is the right circumstances.
• Educate yourself on self-sabotage. Make sure you clean up your own tendencies to self-sabotage.
• Help them see their value.
• Help them discover their talents.
• Hold boundaries around your value.

Now that the hard conversation is over…

Always remember to appreciate the people who do things right in your life.

Take care of yourself.

You are amazing.

Just because someone discourages you or thinks they know better doesn’t mean you’re not on the perfect track.

The right people see you and support you always.

Further exercises:

Go to your favorite social media website and see if you can take five different posts and decipher which position they implicitly/explicitly take.

Relevant Works

Stephen Covey’s 7 Habits of Highly Effective People (where I got win-win)

Mention of inconsistent punishment comes from this study.

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